Help, how do I get off the conveyor belt without guilt?

in

I am reading/rereading through each of the following: Thomas Jefferson Education, Leadership Education, and Thomas Jefferson Home Companion. I have been considering this of over a year and don't know how to just jump in. I am stuck in the rut of just doing school at home with a little added Mom content to flavor it, but my children do not love learning. They love playing, watching TV, or anything else but "school."

I listened, for the first time yesterday, to Oliver DeMille's "Basics." I will go back and reread the points he said to be basic understanding.

Do I just stop what we are doing? When will their own initiative kick in? Do I require the 3Rs? We usually do the 3Rs before lunch and read alouds and discussions together after lunch. I have 4 children (18-freshman college, 13-7th grader, 11-5th grader, 8-1st grader.) My freshman does his own work.

My education, since becoming a homeschool mom, has improved dramatically. I now love to learn and they see that, but I don't want them to in their 40's before they do?

Thanks

I think you are doing great!

I think you are doing great! You do the 3 R's already. And read after lunch- you are doing it in my opinion. Keep doing your scriptures and prayers with your kids and turn to the Lord for any and all questions you might have and other then that you are doing awesome!!!

paradigm shifting

I want to add my two cents: that getting off the conveyor belt takes a giant paradigm shift. Hearing Dr. DeMille and Dr. Brooks speak 8 years ago really did it for me, after a very uncomfortable high school career in which I was tossed to and fro by the system, only to graduate uselessly with high honors (which really only means that I could play "the game" really well.) So, I would recommend going to a Face to Face with Greatness Seminar if at all possible. The TJed forums are great too. And you are doing the right thing by asking for help from your "Community". Tjeders want to help each other! We are a family.

So, if you have seen some ill effects from the compulsory government school system :) then perhaps a quick paradigm shift won't be difficult. However, know that it is so deeply engrained in our public schooled psyche's that it will also take continual course corrections. If you are deciding to TJed for different reasons, it may be a little more challenging to make the shift.

It's all about Trusting the Process, that it will work, and trusting your kids. They have good instincts. It is also about giving the whole thing to your higher power. For me, that is my God, and I know that he doesn't have a conveyor belt. So when I am not doing so well off the conveyor belt, I try to remember to give the process back to him. It's for Him that I do what I do anyway. (It doesn't always work...don't ask my kids about the tantrum I threw 2 weeks ago when i was frustrated that they weren't "studying" enough...as if building a homemade primitive bow, learning to ride and work on dirtbikes, having his own buisness, being an apprentice to Dad and reading almost constantly isn't study....oops, slipped back onto the CB.

You are divinely guided. You know what is right, and you will be guided. If you are feeling the call to Tjed, then you will be qualified to carry out that call. Know that you are not alone. And pray lots :)

God bless your efforts.
Jedimom

gears grinding

My paradigm gears are grinding again. This shift is/will be good... do you ever get tired of constantly shifting your ground to a better place? I'm trying again... and this time putting in different priorities. My dd needs me to learn sign language, and my ds needs me to play piano as an incentive for him, and my youngest ds needs me to spend lots of time supervising and talking with him. My eldest dd needs me to give her some idea of what she will need while living away from home in the fall. So:

rearrange house to accommodate electronic keyboard and later full-size piano
post sign language charts
learn sign language alphabet and teach children
learn ASL scriptures for Primary
learn ASL songs for Primary
practice keyboard daily
clear out and dispose of old desktop computer to make room

It really does help to write it out.

Future Rocket Scientist doesn't want to do the work

I've had the hardest time with my oldest. Granted I'm new to TJEd, but I've always required them to do certain subjects. I've talked to my oldest about what he needs to do to become the rocket scientist that he dreams of and wants to do. But unfortunately, he doesn't want to spend the effort. Even when others ask him 'what do you want to do when you grow up', he tells them, but then refuses to do simple work. He doesn't want to do 'school' at all. He is 12yo, never went to public school, doesn't want to, would rather play computer games or play outside or garden even. Yes, garden. He's our gardener. He takes care of our garden, digs, plants, finds things to grow, transplant, and tend to. He's amazing in that area and in Science. What do I do? Do I just let him get up each day and not do anything? I've talked to my husband about when we are able to, we'd like to go to Huntsville, AL to the Space and Rocket Center with hopes that will inspire him to spend that effort in doing what he has dreamed of for so long. (This particular son is my perfectionist that when faced with a challenge, would rather not spend the effort because he feels that he may not get it perfect anyway. Another example, when taking a test at the end of the school year, he won't answer questions at all, if he feels he might be guessing. Will he study? No, doesn't want to spend the time to do it. So taking an Achievement test is awful...you should see the blank answers.)

Help!? Advice?

I feel for you!

I have a 12 year old in almost the same predicament. I get so frustrated at times...but let me tell you what I learned after the tantrum I threw two weeks ago (as mentioned in my other reply) I learned that when I am frustrated, it's because I am responding from the direct center of my own personal conveyor belt. Sure, he's a failure if I consider that he's kind of weak on his multiplication tables, refuses to write anything, and will only read books like the Ranger's apprentice series...sure I'm a failure as a mother if you look at the history and geography he DOESN'T know...and yes, it's so sad that he isn't in any college classes yet.

But once I gathered my senses back together, and hastily apologized to the Lord and my kids, I realized that I was using the wrong lens to look at his accomplishments. If I look at them from a much more eternal perspective and strive to see his successes, they are suddenly everywhere. He is great. His accomplishments are many and his knowledge in HIS area of interest (not MY areas of insistence....) is vast. He is an expert on all things to do with WWII. He knows way more than I do about so many things.

Also, what I realized at that point is that it is Dad's turn with him. He needs to take risks, do wild things, spread his wings and learn outdoor things. (That's just how his daddy is, so that's the kind of mentoring he gets.) So I have turned my head as he tries to jump his motorcycle, and I have smiled big when he tells me all about taking his bike's engine apart...and I wave good bye as they go off to work together. My husband is a great example of hard work, and that, above all, is what I want my children to learn. So it may be that it is getting close to the time when you might give the reins to Dad. Your time of inspiration for that child may be drawing to a close, and you may have to take a back seat in his education.

One more thing: My husband does not consider himself book smart. So by the conveyor belt model, I am committing a crime of epic proportions. But the proof is in the pudding. I'll let you know if it turns out ok :)

Blessings! (Keep the faith!)
Jedimom

Yes! proof in pudding

Your dh is supporting his family, right? So he's doing okay. And teaching his son important skills that aren't found in reading books is a great work. My dh and I are both book smart but not particularly accomplished at fixing up our home. That's okay, as long as someone we know and trust can mentor our son who is good at fixing things.

My dd, the same 5yo who refuses to toilet train on my conveyor belt, is fascinated by ants and is currently rereading the same science book on ants several times a day (I read it to her). We have a bumper crop of ants in our yard, so lots to see. It will turn out okay. Honest. Sit on hands and smile. (toothy grin)

Sigh

Sounds very much like a combination of my two eldest children (big dreams little measurable effort, plus perfectionism). I started homeschooling after my eldest had been in public school kindergarten where his young inexperienced teacher worshiped him. I didn't give him the constant diet of praise that he had gotten used to; it was a shock.

It may be that he says he wants to be a rocket scientist but doesn't yet have any clear idea of what's involved (I mean, you can explain it to him, but he doesn't have actual experience). My ds wanted for years to have his own hawk, but it wasn't until he spent a day with a hawk trainer that he knew what it could be like; he decided he didn't want that anymore. So you're wise to go and give him what experience you can.

But also let him explore in the things he is interested in doing. Gardening is a great scientific activity and he may fall in love with it--in the same sense that in romances the girl has the boy she has a crush on and a different boy who is her real best friend. Rocket science may be his crush, but he may find that once he knows more about it, he'll choose more wisely where his real interests are.

My guess is he's still in Love of learning Phase, and if you've been requiring academics all along, he may not feel free to explore. Pray about it, and let go of what you can let go of. Math, writing, handwriting, spelling, can wait until he feels more need for them... Really, they can.

My eldest is now out of the house and still learning a lot, progressing.
My second child, the perfectionist, will have her associates degree at age 17 in about a month. It's okay to let go now, so they learn what they want to do, what they're passionate about.

WOW...

...this TJed stuff is so common sense but I can see the conveyor belt idea being something easily caught up on. Literally having just started researching this method for my own homeschooled children tonight, I am scared about leaving the conveyor belt in the off position to forever get rusty.

I am so looking forward to learning more about this method of education, or should I say being educated. My children, ages 7 and 10, were just pulled from public school in Oct. 09' due to as you can imagine so many reasons. Needless to say so far this homeschooling journey has been full of 'hey this curriculum looks good then the money is spent then I realize it was a waste' moments.

I pray to God to help me learn from posts such as this one and quite possibly find a way to make TJed a part of our life.

Heather in MD

about that conveyor belt

I don't think of the conveyor belt as left to rust; I think of those glorious scenes in the movies where the chains fall off and become dust, while the person becomes full of light and glory and joy!

I know that God will influence where I can't

I have come to the conclusion that if I pray about it God always influences in the way I didn't even expect.

My family is still fully on the conveyor belt...

I homeschooled my children for the "school year 2008-2009" and then they went back to school for this school year. My husband saw my frustration with the hsing and we had family move in and it all snowballed resulting in them being reenrolled in public school. My husband is fully conveyor belt, convinced they will not learn at home.

I am fully convinced they need to be in charge of their education and am myself reeducating myself. I am trying to be patient and act as mentor not only to my children but to my husband as well. He is not a high school graduate and only has about a fourth grade spelling level. He struggles with learning as do two of my sons. I want to bring my children back home but am uncomfortable doing so until I get my husband on board. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to encourage a non reader husband to understand what I have come to know?

Steph

Try Family Reading at night

If your husband is home at nights, you might try "family reading time"--even if at first your husband isn't participating. If you know of a great classic that might pull him in, he just might catch the vision as you read and discuss things with your children. You might find that he enjoys sitting and listening to you read a great book to the family--and the great discussions that can spring from such classic books.

Taking this approach would not be forcing it upon your family, but it might inspire them to crack open classics on their own. This is inspiring whether or not you are homeschooling. I cannot tell you how many times I've ignited my own "sparks" just through reading good books. I become on fire about reading and learning, and that can be quite contagious. Just an idea!

Growing process

It's a growing process, takes time. We discussed homeschooling for a couple years after I felt I could do it. My dh felt having several small children at home at the same time would derail it. Well, yes, if you're trying to duplicate a public school schedule at home (we were initially), small children would mess it up. It took several years of trying to follow a public school schedule, of trying to force learning (and failing), of damaging and repairing family relationships, for us to finally let go of the public school habits we had learned. And it's still a work in progress; as soon as my children reach high school age, my dh's conveyor belt instincts kick in and we have the same discussions over again.

What has really saved us, so far, have been Family Executive Council meetings (Dad, Mom, and God), and interviews parents with one child at a time. We've had to learn to listen and pay attention when our children tell us what they feel they need to do at this time, and our children have had to accept that some of the things they'd like to do aren't going to happen just now.

In my core classic there's a plan for working together as husband and wife. When you as wife have a concern, you let your dh know, but if he's not willing to listen to it, or if he doesn't see the value of it, you tell God, and ask God to tell him. While you're waiting for your dh to see it, you work diligently on the things you can do, improving your own habits. God will tell him; your dh will see more clearly over time. While you're waiting, keep working on your education and encouraging your dh and children to learn.

There's a fine distinction between encouraging them to learn and pushing them to learn. You'll have to learn where the line is between inspiring and requiring. That's a necessary skill and you cannot start too soon learning it. The problem is that the line moves; it's different for each child and for each situation. It's like dentistry; when the gum is the most swollen, any touch, however light, will be taken as pressure and will hurt. If you push learning too hard, they will stop moving, like mules. This goes double for your dh.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." --author unknown

HFWM- Reading these words

HFWM-

Reading these words from you were a huge help. In following this post, I hadn't thought ever of having a sit down one on one with each child as husband and wife. BRAVO!!!! Thank you!

One thing that has helped my

One thing that has helped my children, is a list! I have long lists of every possible activity that I would consider "educational". During our morning school hours, if they have nothing to work on, they can choose something from the list OR I will assign them family work. Usually they figure out pretty quick how they'd like to spend their time. They don't get to whine, or dilly-dally about choosing, either. It only took a couple times of assigning family work for them to get it. Now I rarely have a kid say that they are bored, or that they can't think of anything to do.

Included on my list are things like cooking, sewing, science experiments, reading, writing a letter, working in the garden, math pages, math games, math books, etc. Granted, I am not starting from scratch with older kids. I've been doing this all along with the first. And I'm sure that makes a difference. But I still believe that it can work.

Have you tried letting each child plan their school day or week? My 11 year old is so productive when she does that. But if she doesn't, it's like her brain freezes up and she can't think of anything to do. I'm the same way. :-) But when they make their own list of things to do, it's much more likely to be enjoyable for them.

Good luck. Don't give up!
Kelly

list

I made a list, too, and discovered that my children are learning persuasive speaking and logical thought by coming up with things they want to do and then finding reasons why they're educational activities. Our 15yods did a whole sales pitch for Mom and Dad on why he should be allowed to get a bass guitar (and why Mom and Dad should help pay for it). He did lots of research, found the one he wanted, with educational DVD and online lessons, earned half the money, assembled an awesome Powerpoint presentation on it, gave us his whole spiel, and promised to practice every day. He got the guitar in September, I think, and has worn out and replaced (by himself) the lowest string twice already. A couple months ago we had to limit the time he could practice, so that other family members would have time to sleep...

My children have also been helped by planning their days in advance. I keep a day planner and a wall calendar; my dh keeps a PDA. My 12yodd recently started writing out her next day plan the night before; I feel like keeping her plan papers, because they are so Her. I don't require children to plan ahead. They discover pretty quickly once they reach 11 or 12 years old (my sons more like 14-15 years old), that if they don't plan ahead they'll miss things. We go over the weekly schedule with the children once a week, after Dad and I have had our scheduling meeting. My 8yo and youngers do not plan ahead, but the teens do. My oldest son (18) did not start keeping a daily plan until he was halfway through high school years (homeschooled taking college courses online), and it shows in his grades.

What do they play?

What are your children playing when they play? My children have at various times set up whole cities and civilizations (the Lego people, the toys, the Fisher-Price Little People) with all the trappings they could think of: families, currency, banks, transportation, housing, jobs, military, law enforcement, courts, food, clothes, stores, schools, outlaws. That's education. The only thing they didn't have, I think, was insurance, and if you count racketeering as insurance, they had that, too.

You sound like you're not willing to let go of their educations. Well, you should keep track of what they're doing; they should report to you regularly on how and what they're doing. But their educations belong to them. You're an advisor and supervisor who holds them accountable to the commitments THEY choose to make. It's my sad experience, and happy experience, that when the children make commitments themselves, and are held accountable for keeping their commitments, things go much better. If Mom and Dad choose the classes, the books to do, the activities, without any input from children, the children refuse to put their full efforts into those things. Not because they're not good things. Not because the children don't want to do them. Sometimes the children want to do those activities very much. But because the children didn't choose them for themselves, they don't Own their activities. Their hearts aren't in it.

Read up on Family Executive Councils (Dad, Mom, and God), and then read up on parents-child interviews. There are posts on this board about them, and there is good information in the books you mentioned.

You said your college freshman does his own work. How did you let go of responsibility for his classes? Can you turn responsibility over, not to a college professor, but to your child? After all, your child wants to learn.

Conveyor Belt

I have been going through the same exact thoughts, feelings and decisions!!

I am a mother of five ages 2-10. Today my kids were all doing different projects and things, while we're also getting ready for a book club this afternoon when my 10yo said, "Mom, I'm not going to have time to do my schoolwork today." I told him that he has been doing "schoolwork" all day. Sorting nails for the book club, finishing a lapbook project, reading, chores, making a cake for scouts tonight, etc. My daughter looked up from writing her "book" about her family and said, "Is this school?" I said, "Yes!" Her response was, "But this is fun!" Hahah! I explained that I'm trying to make school more FUN again and told them about all of my "plans" for slowly getting off that conveyor belt. So, I know it's all starting, but I'm still anxious and not 100% sure how to change their thinking of "schoolwork not fun" vs. "fun is learning." I think this whole philosophy is GREAT for if you're just starting out but it's so hard to make those changes when kids are older. I don't want my kids to fee like they are not required to do anything anymore and I don't want them to "fall behind" on what they've already learned (I know, total conveyor belt thinking there, but you know what I mean). :-)

I am anxious to hear what others have to say on this topic!!
Thanks for posting, Beth.

building a Ship

Both of my parents are highly educated who finished universities in Economics in Poland.
They have stressed education ever since I was little. My father expected me to be like him.
But because both of my parents did not live the law of chastity I had no desire to be like them.
I hated what they loved. I hated education. Although education in Poland was okay.
When we came to America I was 12 years old and my parents send me to a public school.
It was a shock from the Polish school system. I never adjusted I hated the conveyor belt.
And I realized that education just as I thought was the worst thing in the world.
I only went to school to make friends.

Then when I was 16 years old lds sister missionaries came to my home, my father had left us by then and there was a quiet space of time for us. I was very hungry for the truth!

I hated reading anything but I devoured the book of Mormon like a dry sponge. I was counseled by the sisters to read the book of Mormon every day. Because they were filled with the spirit I did exactly what they told me to do. Unlike my immoral father whom I had no desire to listen to or obey I obeyed the sisters perfectly in all they taught me. I loved the book of Mormon.

I didn't read English very well, but I taught myself how to read by reading the book of Mormon every day! It filled my life with joy and peace that I so desperately needed. I never stopped reading the book of Mormon. It was the only link to sanity in my turmoilish life!

years later:

When I was pregnant with my first child I had a dream in which I was told to always study the book of Mormon with my children. I did that. 2 of my kids have been to American Heritage school- but it was nothing but a conveyor belt with a little bit of scripture and prayer in the morning. When they said they would fail my daughter for her bad writing skills and that we needed to study at home more I was upset. I thought; "They have her for 7 hours a day and they can't even teach her how to write? And when she is suppose to jump and play I am suppose to be teaching her at home?"
This didn't sit with me so we left and joined the private Kimber Academy school that really does inspire the love of learning phase. All my kids were progressing in learning how to love, but not really learning that much scholastically. But the Spirit said- "stay!".

When my husband decided to go back to school we couldn't afford private school anymore.
I didn't know what to do so I turned to the Lord. During our scripture study one day I saw my 4 year old drawing a picture and I was taken in a vision/taught/feeling as I saw my children doing home school this year and having great fun. I knew I was suppose to do that. It was not an easy decision, I hated school. But then I remembered that Nephi didn't know how to build a ship. He probably never even seen a real ship in his life where he lived. But because He turned to the Lord he build an amazing ship.

As I turned to the Lord this year doing home school with my 5 children ages 2-12 I get revelations how to do it better every day and I love school! That is a miracle!
One day during a very successful scripture study after being very anxious if I was doing my home school right- I received another revelation from the Lord. He said: "This is the best school ever!" He was referring to our successful scripture study! I was amazed and surprised.

What I didn't realize is that my kids were scripture scholars. Every Sunday their primary and young women teachers come up to me to compliment me on how well my children not only know, but understand the scriptures.

My 12 year old daughter who was going to be failed for bad writing skills - today is writing a book. And says that writing is her favorite subject. All thanks to my home school this year.
My home school lasts only 2 hours a day! But we do it all year around unless we get distracted doing something else.

All we do at school is :

30 minutes or more of primary music songs, 2 prayers 1 kid and 1 adult and scripture study from Preach my Gospel. And lots of discussions on what we read! Lots!

then we go outside to play a while or garden if it is nice weather
if it is bad weather we clean the house together

then in our classroom:

15-30 minutes of quiet time where we do something creative like drawing, paining, wood work, sewing, anything we feel inspired to do that is creative.
Sometimes we do reading American History and some writing- learning to spell from the proclamation to the world. They have some big words there.
Lately I was inspired to have the children write reports on a Friend or New Era Articles-
thanks to the TJERefers generally to the concepts presented in the book A Thomas Jefferson Education, written by Dr. Oliver DeMille. We also have an Introduction to Thomas Jefferson Education available elsewhere on this site..
Then we do cheap little math work books. My kids like math, we have fun relating math problems to made up spiritual stories sometimes.
that's it! that is all I do.
The kids learn science on their own from science books. They love to read everything.
My husband is reading classics to them at nights sometimes. Not every night.
And we do taekwondo together.

My agnostic father, my catholic mother and my mormon sister all think that I am crazy and that I am ruining my children's education. Let them think what they like.
I am building a ship- whose builder is God- not me.

Kinga

Thank you

Thank you for this post. I needed to be reminded to learn scriptures. I'm struggling with my 5yodd, who will not, will NOT use the toilet. She knows how and can do it, but when she needs to pee she doesn't even head to the bathroom. So I'm backing off again, put her in diapers again, and trying to calm myself. I feel the need to teach her and her 13yo sister sign language, for their language development. Sign language of the scriptures I can learn to do!

best classic the book of Mormon!

I can't remember which Friend Article it was but it was this year, where a little boy learned how to read by reading the book of Mormon.
The book of Mormon inspired me and I learned how to read English all on my own.
The book of Mormon is the best way to learn how to read.
Yes, even with those big words. Just have the little kids read the small words. They will get better if you show them how it is done. And most of all they will feel the love of Jesus Christ as they read that book. And you will feel it too. It will heal the whole family.
I don't think any classics can ever compare to the book of Mormon.

You want to get off the conveyor belt- or Satan's belt?- read the book of Mormon!
It will rip you out of the power of Satan's contention, conveyor belts, wrong mindsets, false ideas, bad family traditions, anger, any and all family problems, any ignorance you might have inherited from your parents or your own past or current sins, literally anything missing in your life, or anything wrong in your life and it will bring you to God! When you are in Gods hands- you are in good hands. And He will take care of you.
I have experienced this over and over again in my life.
I don't just believe. I know!

Statistically speaking I should not be able to trust God at all because I had an abusive father and screaming crazy mother! Go figure!

I trust God more then I trust anybody because of the power of the book of Mormon in my life!
Nothing is too hard for God when you read the book of Mormon!
Kinga

Amen.

The Book of Mormon is a major part of my core classic, also. I rely on it every day.

I'm thankful for hearing Andrew Pudewa on the importance of memorizing; there were two classes at the LDSEHE homeschooling conference that talked about memorizing poetry as well as scriptures, because the poetry has rhythm and rhyme, both of which aid memory. It occurs to me that I've slacked off on learning songs! Music has both rhythm and rhyme, plus it carries important messages into the hearts of its hearers.

So! Primary songs, hymns, nursery rhymes, action rhymes (including my 3yods in this), scriptures, poems, quotes. Mr. Pudewa stressed reviewing past poems every day, as well, so that they become ingrained in memory. It helps build memory pathways that other information can also use.

thank you

thank you. I needed that today.
We will be learning a new song/hymn with the kids for home school today.
Kinga