The Chosen Discussion

I just finished The Chosen, and my mind is full of ideas that I just have to discuss. I haven't read it since I was in high school--it's amazing how much more you get out of something when you choose to read it, rather than being coerced. I couldn't put the book down, and in fact tried to make dinner with a baby in one arm and a book in the other!

Does anyone have any thoughts on the significance of the library? I'm trying to organize my thoughts, and would really love to hear other people's insights.

And where to begin on the topic of silence?

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Becca

Thought I'd post what I've written on "The Chosen"

Sorry if this is too much, but I'd love to engage in discussion with anyone! I know this is an older thread, but I did see the post that said "check the old threads", so here it goes.
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Although the young characters in Chaim Potok’s novel The Chosen were both highly intelligent, their fathers chose two starkly contrasting methods of education. Reb Saunders maintained a strong hand in his son’s life, minimized communication, and intentionally inflicted pain so his son would consider the pain of others. David Malter, on the other hand, allowed Reuvin to choose his own path, providing only minimum interference, while at the same time constantly engaging and inspiring his son. He urged his son to befriend a boy in pain- Danny - which taught Reuvin to feel for someone outside of himself. Although both methods managed to instill compassion in the boys, only one allowed for a close relationship between father and son.

Reb Saunders clearly dominates his son’s life. In their first real conversation, Danny tells Reuvin that he will be a rabbi when he grows up because “I have no choice” (pg. 74). His position as his father’s son requires him to shoulder the responsibility. And yet, even when Danny determines that perhaps his brother could inherit the position, he does not broach the subject with his father, planning instead to run away from what he feels his father demands. (The fact that his father accepted Danny’s choice has no bearing on the discussion, as Danny did not learn this until after he made his decision.) Furthermore, to engage in studies outside of those prescribed by his father, Danny must sneak off to the library, where he literally consumes books. Not surprisingly, the books he reads are those most forbidden by his father – Darwin, for instance, and Freud.

On the other hand, David Malter exercises gentle dominion over his fifteen-year old son. He encourages him to be a mathematician, but does not protest Reuvin’s desire to become a rabbi. He shows himself willing to accept Reuvin’s choice – in fact, he allows him to make a choice – whatever it may be, while still revealing his preference. He permits his son the opportunity to read many things, even those with which he disagrees. Instead of prohibiting, he oversees his son only to engage him in conversation about what has been studied.

And that, of course, is the second major difference in the two teaching styles. Malter actively discusses with Reuvin that which has been read. He helps his son to recognize the fallacies in any text, and to learn from them. Reuvin and his father constantly engage in conversation – over dinner, on the Sabbath, throughout the week. They talk of scriptures and of logic – but they always talk. Furthermore, as a published writer, Malter presents his beliefs and opinions to the world at large, which allows his son to glimpse further into his father’s soul. Not surprisingly, the subjects of his articles come under great discussion between the two.

Saunders, on the other hand, has prevented himself from discussing Danny’s education by isolating his son. He chose instead to limit communication to their analysis of the scriptures. He thus gives up the opportunities he could have had to correct the alternate point of views Danny was exposed to. Danny was obviously troubled as he read the history of Judaism, and even more disturbed as he plunged into Freud’s anti-moral writing. Had his father been by his side, he could have provided minute course corrections that kept Danny on the same moral path Reb Saunders pursues. Ironically, the things he read – particularly Freud’s amoral analysis of how the unconscious controls us – had the potential to hinder Danny’s compassion, the exact trait Saunders hoped to develop with his silence. Maintaining silence gives Freud the advantage and further turns Danny away from his father’s path. In addition, Saunders engaged his son only in fierce scriptural battles, discussions which called for Danny to repeat various interpretations of the Torah, but never to give his father his own opinion. Again, Saunders missed the opportunity to help his son apply God’s word in his life, thus nurturing his compassionate nature.

The greatest difference in the educational instruction of the boys, of course, came through the way the fathers taught compassion. Saunders choose to isolate his son from him, inflicting silence and pain upon him in the hopes that exposure to such pain would help his son to feel it for others. Fearing his son’s brilliance, he struggled to nurture his conscience the only way he knew how. In doing so, however, he neglected his own relationship with Danny. He could have engaged his son, helped to mold his education and thinking process, walked him through foreign books and opinions and helped him relate the holy words to his own life. But this path was lost to him when he first chose silence.

Malter, on the other hand, chose a different method of teaching his son compassion. After his son has been injured, while they sit in the hospital, he reproves him for his unkind treatment of Danny. “What I tried to tell you, Reuvin, is that when a person comes to talk to you, you should be patient and listen. Especially if he has hurt you in any way.” He prefaces this by citing scripture to back up his point, thus teaching Reuvin to apply them in his life: “You remember what the Talmud says” (pg. 68). He urges his son not only to forgive, but also to befriend a boy that he knows is already hurting. In short, Malter teaches his son to be compassionate by encouraging him to help someone who is in need. He provides real life examples and holy references, in stark contrast to Saunders’ silence.

Did both Danny and Reuvin learn compassion? Yes. One could argue, then, that Saunders’ methods were effective. However, when we teach our children, the results alone are not the only thing that matters. What also matters is our relationship with them. Saunders taught his son compassion, but at the cost of permanently damaging their relationship. Malter taught his son compassion and maintained a strong relationship with him. Ultimately, David Malter’s method of teaching is not only intellectually superior but also morally superior.

Re: The Chosen Discussion

Okay... here I am.. I don't know if anyone is going to notice this post down here!

I decided to share just a little portion of my notes. I love the book. One of the things I wrote to myself on a sheet that I have been keeping little snippets and quick thoughts on was: "Who am I becoming?" That is the biggest thing this book caused me to ask myself.

I wanted to share my little observation about this one section in the book. (Page numbers are from my paperback. It's the end of chapter 9. )

P 164-165 (Reuven is home from the hospital; his eye healed.) (He hung up the phone after talking with Billy’s father, after learning that little Billy’s operation was unsuccessful.)

“… I went out onto the porch, sat in the lounge chair, and stared across the yard at the ailanthus. Its leaves were bathed in sunlight, and its musky odor reached me faintly in the breeze that blew against the back of the house. Something moved faintly across the edge of the field of vision of my left eye, but I ignored it, and kept starring at the sunlight on the ailanthus leaves. It moved again, and I heard a faint buzzing sound. I turned my head and looked at the wooden rail of the porch. A spider had spun a web across the corner of the upper rail, and there was a housefly trapped in it now; its wings spread-eagled, glued to the strands of the web, its legs flaying the air frantically. I saw its black body arching wildly, and then it managed to get its wings free, and there was the buzzing sound again as the wings struggled to free the body to which they were attached. Then the wings were trapped again by the filmy, almost invisible strands of the web, and the black legs kicked at the air. I saw the spider, a small gray, furry-looking spider, with long, wispy legs and the black eyes, move across the web toward the fly. I rose from the chair and went over to the web. The fly’s tiny black legs flayed the air fiercely, then its wings were free again, buzzing noisily, but its body remained glued fast. I bent and blew hard against the web. It swayed, but remained intact. I blew again, harder now, and the strands seemed suddenly to melt. The fly fell on its back to the wooden floor of the porch, righted itself, then flew off, buzzing loudly. The spider tumbled from the broken web, hung by a single strand a few inches above the floor, then swiftly climbed the strand, scrambled across the top front rail of the porch, and disappeared. I went back to the lounge chair, sat down, and continued to stare at the sunlight on the ailanthus.”

This whole passage is a metaphor. An interesting fact: The Ailanthus is a tree which can reach 80 feet in height and is also called “Tree of Heaven”. Reuven sees the fly out of the corner of his left eye. This is the eye that was injured. The fly is Danny. The web is the Hasidim. The gray spider would be Danny’s aged father. I think Reuven’s mission is to help Danny free himself just as he blew the fly free from the web. He did not free the fly without some effort. Effort and some struggle was required to be a true friend and be supportive of Danny’s decision. The color of the fly’s black body and legs reminds me of the clothing Sanders family and the others of the Hasidim wore. In the struggle the fly puts up, he is ‘spread-eagled’ at one point much the same way Danny is poised to take off into the world. I like the fact that the fly falls all the way to the floor and then rights “itself”. Danny's experience was much the same when he relinquished his involvement with family and Hasidic duties to build his own life, and pursue the education and career of his own choice. There are other things here. It’s neat to see how interwoven this metaphor is. Potok is gifted!

Did you see any other metaphors in the book????

Chosen: spider metaphor

Love, Love, LOVE it! I would not have seen that! I have read the book twice in the last year or so and still didn't see metaphors. Thanks for the new challenge to reading it the third time.
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Be warned: the movie is so horrible- please don't ruin it for yourself! It is incredibly dumbed-down.

The Promise is excellent as well.

Cathryn

Re: The Chosen Discussion

How does the saying go? Speach is silver, silence is golden? Danny's father chooses a path which will help his son discover himself. He is not providing any answers but lets Danny discover for himself who he is and where his place in life is. The price is high, Danny's choice is different from the future envisioned by his father. The payoff is that both characters humanity stays intact.
What a great parental model! Reminds me of a quote from The Prophet that parents should give children their love but not their thoughts.

HSMom

Re: The Chosen Discussion

This is the only book on the 5 Pillar list that I was able to get from my library. Is that unusual?

Anyway, I've started reading it and love it so far! I will be back to post my thoughts and comments soon!

The boys are about to go to meet Danny's dad... this should be interesting! ;-)

Re: The Chosen Discussion

I read this book a couple months ago. As soon as I was done I got the sequel and read that one too.

I really liked Britt's idea's and thoughts.

Can you believe my mind is drawing a blank on what else stood out. I'll have to go back to the discussion we had about this book on ldfr and copy, paste :)

Re: The Chosen Discussion

Becca!!

Glad to see you. I read this book in highschool also, and I have sure changed.

I feel a great love for the character that inspired Danny's father. Here is a man who so deeply loves his son, has faith in God, and wents to mentor his son. He had a definite long term plan for his son. He is so willing to mentor his son that he even disciplined himself to silence-sacrificing their relationship, the feeling of those around him and great heart ache. He finally won the respect of his son. He finally won back the relationship with his son, was the cost worth it?

We do not know what Danny would have been like without Silence. From everything I have read this is not an actual practice of Hasidic Jews (please someone correct me on this!). This was a literary device. It does not lessen the impact to me. It helps me question what I am willing to do to mentor my children. I need to prayerfully plan--for the long term. I need to develope this plan based on a vision of their mission. I really believe every parent will significantly sacrifice to mentor their children. Our mentoring may be verbal, we may need to prayerfully deliver them to another mentor...It will be more than reading a few good books ;). It will be changing ourselves. Sometimes in the past I have thought that perhaps my child needs a different mother I am not ...something...enough. Now I realize that identifying a need in my child that I can not fill means I may need to change-ALOT. They may also need something different than I can give them. In scholar phase they may need another mentor.

Now to me the story is not over. I am secretly hoping that somewhere inthe literary world Danny will return to his faith and father. I am hoping that the love of his father paved the way for this return.

As it stands I see the ending of The Chosen as a broken ending. If this were my son and I were Hasidic I would not be celebrating. I would be desparately seeking new ways to show my love to my son. I would not be happy that he has cast off significant physical evidences of his faith, and opened his mind and heart to such destructive forces. I would pray and hope for the day he discovers that the light in his eyes was temporary and that his feelings of freedom were illusionary.

This book brings up another question--can our mission be contrary to our Core? Is Danny's mission contrary to his core? Is this his mission-or is this a stepping stone? I wonder if I will prepare and study, then find my mission is vastly different from what I imagine....would I revolt at my mission if presented it now?

okay dinner calls....

britt

(ps Becca do you mean to tell me you don't normally cook with a book in hand??)

Re: The Chosen Discussion

Have you read The Promise, or even heard of it? It is the next book after The Chosen. I read it this year.
It's still about Danny and Reuven after they've graduated. It is every bit as good as The Chosen.

The Chosen was so interesting. It had not eral action or adventure but it was steadily moving along, making you think. I really liked Reuven's dad. I felt sorry for Danny. His whole world seemed so dark and confined. You could see that his father, though he had kept silence with Danny, was so thankful that he had someone to talk to in Reuven. The relationship with Danny was intense. It seemed that Reuvenwas always trying to figure out what was going on. The characters rarely came out and openly said what they were thinking right away. Lots of thinking going on and it cuases the reader to think.

Anyway, it's been a while since i read it. My main description of it to my son was that it was very interesting, different from other books but intriguing.
Marsha